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By far the best day in my automotive life was the Friday in September 2005 when I took delivery of a new, 2005 Phantom Black Pontiac GTO. I had the car for three years, and it brought me great joy and a fair amount of angst as well.

It's probably not necessary to state, but the 2004-2006 GTO was a rebadged, left hand drive Holden Commodore coupe, designed and built in Australia. The car had a lukewarm reception at launch, so in 2005 it got a 50HP upgrade in the form of the 6.0 Liter LS3 'Vette engine. The 05 and 06 Goats were good for 400HP and 400 lb.ft of torque. They were available with a manual 6 spd or an automatic 4 speed.

The Good:

Performance was unlike anything most of us have ever experienced. Getting into the throttle on a GTO produced a permanent **** -eating grin and caused you to instantly fall in love with the car. A lot of us took the test drive as a lark and ended up driving the things home and explaining them to our wives.

In addition to the power, the chassis was set up beautifully. The car could cruise around town serenely, smoothly and quietly if that was your mood, and transform instantly into a snarling beast with a tap on the accelerator. I had the Goat on the interstate at 120 a couple of times and it was always solid and composed. It could take almost every other production car on the road that you were likely to encounter. The exhaust note was amazing.

The interior was very nice. Great seats, good quality leather, a lot of attention to detail, a decent amount of tech for the day. At the time it was light years ahead of the standard GM interior, although GM has upped its game considerably since then.

The Bad

There were quite a few manufacturer defects that plagued the cars. The front struts rubbed against the tires on a lot of cars, ruining them and GM was reluctant to step up. Most owners replaced the stock arms and bushings with Pedders upgrades at their own expense. The rear differentials were prone to bearing failure and would whine loudly. GM did replace those diffs under warranty. The entire glovebox assembly dropped out of my car and it took a month for a replacement. There were paint issues, and body part attachment issues. Holden is a good builder, but not great, at least as far as the prior gen Commodore was concerned.


The Ugly

Pontiac dealers weren't happy about having this odd Australian import forced upon them. To their sales team, and to their service team, it was a foreign car...because it really was. Nobody had any experience working on them and nobody seemed to want to work on them.

Chevy may be better with the SS. They've been dealing with the Holden based Camaro now for a few years, and they've had the Vette forerver, but this Aussie RWD 415HP performance sedan is going to be the red headed stepchild in the product line.

The Bottom Line

Pricing out of the gate was insane on the GTO. Dealers only got a couple of cars a piece and slapped $5000 market adjustments on top the $34,000 sticker. A year later, I bought my GTO with 50 more HP at a $5000 discount and had six cars on the lot to choose from. Depending on how aggressive Holden is with the initial production run, expect more of the same on the SS. I'd stay clear for the first six months or so. In the meantime, get yourself a GM credit card if you don't already have one and start racking up the bonus dollars. The SS will likely be excluded from the program to start, but it will eventually get folded in.

Me, I currently drive a very nice Mercedes S Class but my heart still skips a beat when I see a GTO on the road, and I plan on giving the SS a serious look.
 

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Performance was unlike anything most of us have ever experienced. Getting into the throttle on a GTO produced a permanent **** -eating grin and caused you to instantly fall in love with the car. A lot of us took the test drive as a lark and ended up driving the things home and explaining them to our wives.

Nice memories. :)
A meaningless test drive "lark" of the 1st 4th gen Camaro SS ended up with one in my garage, and made me a GM guy. :)
I took the test drive since I abandoned years of building M*stangs because F*rd dropped the forged pistons while retaining a solid axle. (Idiots)
All wheel drive and dual clutch transmissions have replaced IRS as the current "need to have" performance options.
Hopefully GM will figure this out ASAP like the rest of the world already has.





There were quite a few manufacturer defects that plagued the cars. The front struts rubbed against the tires on a lot of cars, ruining them and GM was reluctant to step up. Most owners replaced the stock arms and bushings with Pedders upgrades at their own expense. The rear differentials were prone to bearing failure and would whine loudly. GM did replace those diffs under warranty.

GM has a history or using WEAK diffs since for MANY years. My 100% stock Fbodies frequently had rear end issues, and that's before the stroker and forced induction. This sad fact is the only reason I don't use a 1st Gen CTS-V as my daily beater. Hopefully, GM will learn from their failures.



Chevy may be better with the SS. They've been dealing with the Holden based Camaro now for a few years, and they've had the Vette forerver, but this Aussie RWD 415HP performance sedan is going to be the red headed stepchild in the product line.

Let's hope.


Pricing out of the gate was insane on the GTO. Dealers only got a couple of cars a piece and slapped $5000 market adjustments on top the $34,000 sticker. A year later, I bought my GTO with 50 more HP at a $5000 discount and had six cars on the lot to choose from. Depending on how aggressive Holden is with the initial production run, expect more of the same on the SS.

American Holden (Pontiacs) dealers and used car sellers have been delusional for some time. We educated buyers have been laughing at them and buying other cars for while now. Let's hope GM learns from their failures.


I'd stay clear for the first six months or so. In the meantime, get yourself a GM credit card if you don't already have one and start racking up the bonus dollars. The SS will likely be excluded from the program to start, but it will eventually get folded in.

Great advice.

Me, I currently drive a very nice Mercedes S Class but my heart still skips a beat when I see a GTO on the road, and I plan on giving the SS a serious look.

The Germans and Japanese are offering optional AWD and DCT on the performance cars, so it's hard to buy GM cars until they start doing the same.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Great thread and post.
:)
You typed LS3 instead of LS2.
But, we all knew what you meant. :)
Yikes. LS2 in the Goat, not LS3. I can't imagine an extra 15 hp in that car, although a lot of owners were modded to 500+ and there were a couple of blown 1000 HP lunatics. I was really involved in the GTO forum (LS1GTO.com) I ended up starting an online store selling GTO related shirts and stuff, or as my wife remembers it "that time we almost got divorced".

Anyway, what was odd about the GTO forum was that, every six months or so a member died in a horrific crash, and we all accepted that as normal The Holdens are reasonably well built, but once you're airborne in one, all bets are off.
 

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Nice little write up. You are pretty spot on on the GTO's (I'm sure you meant to say LS2, not LS3) But the reasons you give for the + side is why I'm on my 2nd GTO! Oh, and yes...the GTO's are very comfortable at 120+.:D
 

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One thing that came to my surprised was the person that wrote the article owns a Mercedes S-Class. Usually people that own premium vehicles from brands like Mercedes, BMW, etc have nothing but bad things to say about brands like GM and praise German car makers.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 · (Edited)
One thing that came to my surprised was the person that wrote the article owns a Mercedes S-Class. Usually people that own premium vehicles from brands like Mercedes, BMW, etc have nothing but bad things to say about brands like GM and praise German car makers.
I traded the GTO on the S-Class only because it got hit and nobody could get the paint right. At the time, my criteria was a car that rode as nice or better than the Goat. I drove Lexus, Infiniti, BMW, Cadillac... nothing happening. I was test driving a new Mercedes C Class and hated it. The sales guy asked what I was looking for and I said I wanted a car that could get me out of the GTO. He had a certified pre-owned black 2005 S500 AMG Sport. That car drove nicer than the Goat. Granted, it stickered for $92,500 new. I'm on my second S Class, an 04 S430 with 35k on the odo that cost me $20k and is a beautiful car, but I'm not passionate about it like I was about the GTO.

The Mercedes is no rock star when it comes to reliability either. My 05 had $13,000 in warranty work over three years, and blew a tranny (6k, reman'd) 3000 miles out of warranty. The 04 has been a little better but I just dropped $2200 on Friday to repair a shifter that locked up in 'Park' while my wife had the car two hours away in Tampa, and to replace a fairly new set of Bridgestones that it destroyed because it's so fat. One huge difference between the high end German stuff and GM is that the dealership experience at Mercedes is terrific. You pay through the nose for it, but it's first class,

My current fleet is a 2012 Audi A5 (wife) and a 2012 VW CC R-Line(son). Neither of those cars are better built or as nice to drive as the GTO. The Audi was $50k, and the CC was $28k.

When I buy a car for myself, I want to find what I believe to be the best executed example possible. If it's a luxury sedan, it's the S class. if it's a performance coupe, it's the GTO. If it's a performance sedan, it's probably going to be an SS.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Nice little write up. You are pretty spot on on the GTO's (I'm sure you meant to say LS2, not LS3) But the reasons you give for the + side is why I'm on my 2nd GTO! Oh, and yes...the GTO's are very comfortable at 120+.:D
Ah, an 04 Yellow Jacket with the six speed manual. Nothing subtle about that car. I'm only half bummed that the SS is an A6 only. Rowing the gears was a blast but it was a pain in city traffic or if I wanted to use my phone.
 

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Ah, an 04 Yellow Jacket with the six speed manual. Nothing subtle about that car. I'm only half bummed that the SS is an A6 only. Rowing the gears was a blast but it was a pain in city traffic or if I wanted to use my phone.
Give it a year or two, they will mate the M6 to this SS at some point! Maybe with the new LT1 also! Who knows...:)
 

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When I buy a car for myself, I want to find what I believe to be the best executed example possible. If it's a luxury sedan, it's the S class. if it's a performance coupe, it's the GTO. If it's a performance sedan, it's probably going to be an SS.
C'mon, dude.
The Corvette and the GTR $hit on the GTO.
The Panamera, the E63, the S6, and the CTS-V all $hit on the SS Sedan as well.

I think you are letting your screen name go to your head.
 

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C'mon, dude.
The Corvette and the GTR $hit on the GTO.
The Panamera, the E63, the S6, and the CTS-V all $hit on the SS Sedan as well.

I think you are letting your screen name go to your head.
I don't like half of what you post but I have to agree with this whole statement.

Seems like some people don't realize the 2014 Chevy SS is no longer what they were expecting before any real solid information on it came out.

I think the GTO was an awesome coupe but far from being the " best executed example possible" of a sports coupe.

GT-R set the bar....REALLY HIGH.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Sorry. Well-deserved criticism. Best example of a RWD V8 sports coupe for the money. When you lay down what you'd need to spend for the Porsche, the Mercedes, the GT-R or even on the silly CTS-V (which doesn't belong in any list that contains the other three) versus the actual performance advantage over the GTO it's striking. Of course most of those other cars (and a ton of others) have tangible and intangible advantages that go well beyond performance.

You spend $70,000 on a performance car and it performs. Nothing really magical about that. You spend $34,000 on a performance car and it also performs to an extent that's not far from the $70,000 car, and you feel like you got away with something.
 
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I don't like half of what you post but I have to agree with this whole statement.
Glad you agree with the truth.:)
If you don't like my tone, it's because I am PISSED OFF at GM and I have no diplomacy left outside of work.
Regardless of my tone, you can't refute facts.

Sorry. Well-deserved criticism. Best example of a RWD V8 sports coupe for the money.
Still incorrect. The GTO was never even close.
A base Corvette is the best sports coupe for the money.
If you did your homework and negotiated, you could have bought a new, no-option C6 for under $40k like I did for my daily beater.

The only car that MAY return to the bang for buck king of the hill will be the 2015 M*stang if it gets a respectable IRS suspension instead of the abortion solid axel it runs now. (embarrassment)

If Camaro goes to a lightweight ATS chassis with a LT1/TR6060 and stays at the same, or lower, pricepoint, it will be the new dollar for dollar king.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Glad you agree with the truth.:)
If you don't like my tone, it's because I am PISSED OFF at GM and I have no diplomacy left outside of work.
Regardless of my tone, you can't refute facts.



Still incorrect. The GTO was never even close.
A base Corvette is the best sports coupe for the money.
If you did your homework and negotiated, you could have bought a new, no-option C6 for under $40k like I did for my daily beater.

The only car that MAY return to the bang for buck king of the hill will be the 2015 M*stang if it gets a respectable IRS suspension instead of the abortion solid axel it runs now. (embarrassment)

If Camaro goes to a lightweight ATS chassis with a LT1/TR6060 and stays at the same, or lower, pricepoint, it will be the new dollar for dollar king.
True, although a big part of the negotiation would involve convincing my wife to put the kids up for adoption. Needed four seats. Still, I've never loved the Vette. Something about the cheap interior and lousy seats (which they've addressed in the new 2014 Stingray), and the fact that it screams "mid life crisis" like nothing else on the road today. A stripped down C6 is even less appealing to me.

If I could live with a two seater I'd probably lean toward a lightly used SL500 , or an XK (which theoretically is a 2+2 but ain't). Neither has the grunt of the C6, but the packages are so much nicer.
 

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Still, I've never loved the Vette. Something about the cheap interior and lousy seats (which they've addressed in the new 2014 Stingray), and the fact that it screams "mid life crisis" like nothing else on the road today. A stripped down C6 is even less appealing to me.

If I could live with a two seater I'd probably lean toward a lightly used SL500 , or an XK (which theoretically is a 2+2 but ain't). Neither has the grunt of the C6, but the packages are so much nicer.
This post absolutely killed any credibility you might of had.
Sad.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Credibility I might have had with you? I'm understandably heartbroken. Look, I get that you have a boner for your C6, and I'm very happy for you. It just doesn't do anything for me. Surely you can understand that.

Like let's say we were in Vegas and you picked up a $20 hooker. You love your $20 hooker because she has huge honkers and gives you sex for $20. Then, you decide to marry the $20 hooker. Now. I'll come to the wedding, and I'll even buy you guys something from your bridal registry, like that home tattoo kit or whatever she put on there. However, I personally do not want to have sex with a $20 hooker. But I'm really happy for you and wish you crazy kids all the best.
 

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Credibility I might have had with you? I'm understandably heartbroken. Look, I get that you have a boner for your C6, and I'm very happy for you. It just doesn't do anything for me. Surely you can understand that.

Like let's say we were in Vegas and you picked up a $20 hooker. You love your $20 hooker because she has huge honkers and gives you sex for $20. Then, you decide to marry the $20 hooker. Now. I'll come to the wedding, and I'll even buy you guys something from your bridal registry, like that home tattoo kit or whatever she put on there. However, I personally do not want to have sex with a $20 hooker. But I'm really happy for you and wish you crazy kids all the best.
You lost credibility.....PERIOD.
If my approval is even on your radar, you are even more lost then I thought.
Writing off a chassis and drivetrain over seats is a joke.
Buy some Viper seats and call Caravaggio if the interior isn't up to the "wine and cheese crowd's" standards and the cars you mentioned are time bombs/junk.


Performance/Cost/Reliability/Expandability are not a matter of opinion, they are measurable variables. Opinion has NOTHING to do with it.

Frankly, cars don't even excite me anymore, let alone get me hard.
I'm over the Corvette, even though I respect the C5/C6 as the best sports platform for the money or racing.
1000cc bikes and WORLD CLASS DRIVETRAINS like the ones offered by the GTR and Porsche are what it doing it for me in 2013.

You are not even worth going back an forth with.

In response to your post, if you are getting anything less than 2 or 3 call girls at a time from a national service, you are doing it wrong.
No one should pay for being with a one woman. You should just seduce her on your own and have a mutually gratifying evening together.
But, that takes charm, wit, and other attributes.

I guess that's why hookers make sense for you.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Listen, I'm not suggesting that you can afford a $20 hooker, or that she would agree to have sex with you even if you could. It was just an analogy.
 
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