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Discussion Starter #1
So let's do some background...
The SS comes with the same fuel pump as the ZL1, a single 255LPH pump, but the SS does not have the same FPCM. In fact it has the same FPCM as the 2014 Camaro...and Sonic...and Cruze (although I assume they all use a different firmware, the part number is the same).


One of the cool features of the CTSV/ZL1 FPCM is the ability to reference boost, and compensate. From what I hear, you can adjust not only the pump PSI, but also the Voltage. In the SS, the same feature is not available.


So when you start to get into the 600+whp range, while you can adjust the injector spray patterns to get you the AFR you may desire, if your paying attention to your datalogs, you will start to notice a drop in Fuel Pressure.


Oddly enough, 5th Gen SS Camaros with superchargers and ZL1 pumps notice the same thing. They find no real benefit in running the ZL1 pump off of a stock SS FPCM. The solutions that they have are to run the ADM FPCM and sometimes a BAP, depending on their build.


Somebody had mentioned that Whipple "reflashed" their FPCM...I am curious about the details on this.


What is everybody else doing?


Also, this is a discussion about FUEL PUMPS, FPCM's, and FUEL PRESSURE for SS's over 600whp. If you've never datalogged FUEL PRESSURE, and only go by AFR then I would prefer that you not comment your finding, as they are not relevant.


Also, be aware that no 2 builds are the same, tuner styles vary, conditions vary...I get that, but fact is...ZL1 pump may support up to 650WHP, but in my mind, not with the stock SS FPCM.
 

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You're right on 1 thing. No 2 builds are the same. But 650rwhp is 650rwhp with boost on 93. You're not going to have fuel pressure issues on one, and not the other, without looking at where that info is coming from and determining you don't have a fuel pump problem. It's already been proven over and over and over that 650-800 CAN be made on a stock ZL1 pump. Wes is there. Look at Ryan, Damien, and wait for one of my customers cars to get completed and we will prove AGAIN that 600hp is NOT the limit of our stock fuel system. Losing fuel pressure at part throttle with 12.8 AFR? Yea something isn't right, and we already went over it Charles. Praying for you bud. But you need to find a new tuner that actually knows what they are doing. I apologize if I offend anyone. But truth needs to be told.
 

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Btw, my M6 customers car will be making 17-18lbs of boost on the LSA blower, forged LS3, healthy cam, potted heads, on stock pump with meth
 

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a wise man once told me "you can only lead the horse to the water, you cannot make him drink"

but what do i know... im just another "600+whp" car on a stock ZL1 pump with no boost a pump
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Here we go again. Chris was very clear that he saw the drop in pressure at WOT at the top of 3rd, not partial.


Secondly...we are talking FUEL PRESSURE, not just AFR.


Do you happen to have any PROOF that anybody you mentioned IS NOT experiencing a drop in FP ? Without PROOF, its just conjecture, and conjecture will blow up a motor.


As too your comment that 650rwhp is 650rwhp on boost and 93....I can't put my finger on it, but I don't believe this statement either, but I will hold off on further comments to this until I can back up my thoughts with PROOF.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Tim, I am sorry, but I feel sorry for ANYBODY that has their car tuned by YOU. Your inability to comprehend how a car functions, and to even state that a stock ZL1 pump is adequate to 800whp proves that you do not know what you are talking about, but hey...as long as you can fudge the Dyno numbers, and show those that have no clue that "look at me, I got you a great HP and AFR...but don't worry about your fuel pressure dropping, that doesn't mean anything" makes you feel good...go for it.


Sorry, but I am calling you out on this bullshit, because you are WRONG, even if you don't know it, and I'm not scared to say it.
 

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I just verified with my Tuner and he checked the logs and said I had no drop in fuel pressure at WOT.
 

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don't know the RWHP yet till it gets on the DYNO next week but the boost is 13.5 @WOT with 93 and Meth.
 

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Charles, you clearly have not been paying attention to the fact that we are using meth on those 700-800hp builds. Go take a stroll through the camaro forums and you'll see that there are plenty of people making 650+ on stock ZL1 pump with no loss in FP. You can knock my tuning all you want. Don't bother me none. I'll be posting time slips throughout the winter through spring that will speak for themselves. Just listening to you and your tuner say enough.
 

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Theres an old saying that says "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should"


Charles fuel pump on a 3rd gear pull dropped from the factory set point of 58 psi (4 bar) to 42 psi by 4000 rpm. That is a pressure drop of 16 psi. Now at the time the car was making about 15 psi of boost. So 42 psi effective then drops 15 psi to 27 psi effective fuel pressure since boost is actually pushing against the fuel pressure behind the injector. That is called math. Its quite helpful when tuning.


Now if you are comfortable widening pulse width until enough low pressure fuel finally dribbles out of the injector to finally hit commanded afr then that's a lousy call on your part. I am building my client a fuel system that will be able to properly maintain static fuel pressure throughout the rpm range with less than a 4 psi pressure drop. Why??? because that is how fuel systems are supposed to work. Injectors work properly with constant fuel pressure. Its a fact! If a vehicles fuel pump/system is adequate fuel pressure should never drop more than 8 psi. Its a fact!! At the end of the day who cares if you make 650 wheel on a zl1 pump without a bap. You are likely risking someones engine in the process. That doesn't make you great. That makes you a fool.


Why don't you go log one and see what the fuel pressure actually is before assuming others are wrong. You obviously haven't and at this point you wouldn't tell the truth if you did because you are so far in the hole lmao.


Haters gonna hate I guess.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Meth is Fuel! So saying that the stock fuel system is adequate...but then saying you are adding meth is contradictory. It's not!

Tim, as I said in my PM to you yesterday, YOU do not know what I have asked from my tuner, so you can not base your judgement on that. I was VERY clear with my tuner from the start that Meth WAS NOT an option.

So back to my original question, who has 600+whp without any fuel system modifications or additives/supplements.
 

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So back to my original question, who has 600+whp without any fuel system modifications or additives/supplements.
Not me!:nerd
 

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So back to my original question, who has 600+whp without any fuel system modifications or additives/supplements.
Ok, I'll throw my car in the mix. It's 595rwhp on a Mustang dyno with a lot of heat soak. So strap it top a Dynojet and it'll make well into the 600s. I have the stock fuel pump, no BAP, or meth. Yes I'm close to maxing out the fuel pump, but no loss in pressure. If I wanted to keep going I'd have to upgrade the pump or go meth.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Yes I'm close to maxing out the fuel pump, but no loss in pressure. If I wanted to keep going I'd have to upgrade the pump or go meth.
Have you researched and found any viable solutions (other than meth)? ADM states their FPCM will not work in our cars, and I don't want a BAP (band-aid). Squash says the Camaro Double pump would work, but is major overkill, and a lot of $$$.

Trying to make sure I turn over every stone...
 

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Have you researched and found any viable solutions (other than meth)? ADM states their FPCM will not work in our cars, and I don't want a BAP (band-aid). Squash says the Camaro Double pump would work, but is major overkill, and a lot of $$$.

Trying to make sure I turn over every stone...
Yea I know there are no other cheaper options besides meth or a BAP. I figured since I plan on doing the meth anyway, there's no reason to go crazy building the stock fuel system. Sorry man.
 

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Yes meth is compensating for fuel, agree on that.

Simple; calculate your fuel consumption at WOT and spec the systems accordingly. (feed lines, return lines, fpr, injectors, operating psi, power requirments)

Personally I think BAP is not a good solution and works for the once in a while WOT driver, but have had bad experiences with these solutions and will never use one again or recomend.
 

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Here is some info on your questions.
So let's do some background...
The SS comes with the same fuel pump as the ZL1, a single 255LPH pump, but the SS does not have the same FPCM. In fact it has the same FPCM as the 2014 Camaro...and Sonic...and Cruze (although I assume they all use a different firmware, the part number is the same).
The 2014-2015 Camaro SS switched to the ZL1/1Le fuel pump so it does use the same FPCM as the Chevy SS.

Oddly enough, 5th Gen SS Camaros with superchargers and ZL1 pumps notice the same thing. They find no real benefit in running the ZL1 pump off of a stock SS FPCM. The solutions that they have are to run the ADM FPCM and sometimes a BAP, depending on their build.
The ADM FPCM is nothing but a programmed ZL1 FPCM. :devil
Somebody had mentioned that Whipple "reflashed" their FPCM...I am curious about the details on this.
This is the same as the ADM unit :wink
My thought is to program a FPCM with the HSV GTS firmware and use it, but GM has since restricted access to those files from what I can tell.
I have programmed the ZL1 modules, but when I tried the GTS vin said I was not allowed. :crying

-Greg
 

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Discussion Starter #19
The 2014-2015 Camaro SS switched to the ZL1/1Le fuel pump so it does use the same FPCM as the Chevy SS.

The ADM FPCM is nothing but a programmed ZL1 FPCM. :devil
-Greg

I figured the ADM unit was nothing but a programed ZL1 FPCM, but they stated it wouldn't work with a SS. Their reason was that they sold one to a SS owner last year, and he couldn't get it to communicate. I wonder if the ADM FPCM works on the 14/15 Camaro SS out of the box, or if ADM is having/had to modify the code to make it work. We sent them the picture of our FPCM, with the part number and they stated they were going to look into it and get back with us.


There is also another solution that we are looking at, but it's not published and we are not sure it will work just yet.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Now this just pisses me off even more....

You see Tim, you went on Facebook and started to slam MY Builder/Tuner, stating that he didn't know what he was doing, how did he have his own shop, etc. This is a person that you have NEVER met, a person that you've never seen his tunes, or his work, and proceeded to act all 'holier than thou' like your sh*t don't stink and he was the biggest fuckup on earth. Worse than that, YOU sent me a PM telling to "please, find another Tuner" before he destroyed my motor from his "Piss Poor tuning". I explained some of the details and said you were being very unprofessional, which you shrugged off, and then proceeded to tell me :

Tim Haines said:
Unprofessional? Sorry, but we are all part of the same community, we are suppose to help each other. You own a SS, Chris doesn't. So when I see a shop or a tuner not knowing what the f*ck they are doing and on the verge on causing catastrophic failure to a BRAND NEW $10,000 motor, I'm not gonna ease into the subject lightly. I'm from Texas, not the other 49 p*ssy states in this country. We tell it like it is. If you can't handle it, then that's why you're not a Texan.
You even attacked him again in this thread:

Praying for you bud. But you need to find a new tuner that actually knows what they are doing. I apologize if I offend anyone. But truth needs to be told.
I have NEVER in my life seen a tuner attack another tuner like that, ever. Chris Henry has never been spoken poorly of by ANY of his customers, he has no "bad reviews", is respected by many, like Lashway, Rick Crawford, and others, and has never done anything to you. Even better than that, his clients all RAVE about the work that he does.

But on to the facts:
You said it was impossible to have a drop in pressure in my car, even though we are running 15PSI because:

It's already been proven over and over and over that 650-800 CAN be made on a stock ZL1 pump. Wes is there. Look at Ryan, Damien, and wait for one of my customers cars to get completed and we will prove AGAIN that 600hp is NOT the limit of our stock fuel system.
Once again, you affirm yourself that the SS "STOCK FUEL SYSTEM" is sufficient. Of course ANY person with have a brain knows that a "fuel system" includes many components, including Fuel Pump, FPCM, Injectors, Lines, etc...

So let's go back to your very own LSA Conversion guide that you authored on this very website:

A boost-a-pump isnt required if you stay on low boost but it will help if you start to turn the boost up so the fuel pump can keep up and not lose pressure. Or you can opt out to swap in an Aeromotive 340lph pump or even a Walbro 400 or 450lph pump with slight modification to the bucket.

I researched the fuel pump module in our cars vs the ZL1 and the part numbers are exactly the same, which means they are the same pump. So there is no need to "upgrade" to a ZL1 pump, because its already in our car. ZL1 pump should be good up to 600-650ish HP with a boost-a-pump. If you add methanol injection you can take a slight load off the fuel system and have room to grow for more horsepower as it will cool IAT's and increase octane.
Wow. Even you seem to have forgotten your own information. NOW you start to change your tune...oh...but "Meth". I am sorry, but METH is a fuel. It's changes the characteristics of the fuel delivery requirements and when added to the car becomes part of the SS Fuel System. We NEVER said we were running Meth, and YOU never asked, before you proceeded to insult a reputable tuner.

Sometimes I wonder if you even read what is being said, or if your head is SO BIG with self inflated ego that you don't even attempt to comprehend what is being talked about. Sorry, but people like you are the ones that are ruining this community, not helping it.

If you were man enough, you would admit that YOU WERE WRONG and a STOCK SS FUEL SYSTEM can not handle over 600whp without some sort of modification/enhancement, and YOU WOULD APOLOGIZE to Chris Henry. For some reason, I don't think you have the Balls to do that, which goes to show you that even TEXAS has P*SSIES.
 
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